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Trips and Failures

  • 1.  Trips and Failures

    Posted 06-22-2021 10:07 AM
    Hello M&R professionals,

    Hope everyone is doing well.

    I have two interesting questions.

    1. Are equipment trips considered as failures?
    Let's say, for example, equipment trips on High inlet air temperature. Is this considered a failure?

    2. Will these trips be considered when calculating the MTBF of an equipment if no action was taken to bring the equipment back online? It was just restarted after inspection.

    Thank you for your response.

    Tammy

    ------------------------------
    Tammy Karibo
    Reliability Engineer
    Enerflex
    Abu Dhabi
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Trips and Failures

    Posted 06-23-2021 06:51 AM
    Hello Tammy,

    That is an excellent question.

    In my opinion, if the trip has caused downtime or a negative effect to quality of the output then this should be classed as downtime. In many plants, especially starting up, there are lots of little trips that operators need to re-set that may cause some downtime but because its seen as small, it is not recorded or investigated. Add all those little trips up over the year and they can become significant.
    Even if after re-starting after inspection, trips cost time and should be recorded.

    These trips can eat into time otherwise spent producing and is wasteful.

    The equipment is telling us to investigate something in leu of a trip, that a fault is present, even if the trip itself if the fault (faulty sensor etc) this still causes downtime and from a reliability and safety aspect, must warrant investigating and captured via a KPI for example.       

    Hope this helps   
    ​Derek Brown

    ------------------------------
    Derek Brown
    Grangemouth
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Trips and Failures

    Posted 06-24-2021 06:38 AM
    Hello Karibo,
    Thanks Tammy for this questions.

    Personally, I consider Trips in Availability and MTBF calculations, particularly for recurring trips. I have observed repeated trips that accumulate into significant downtime over time (one month). This downtime data may be lost if ignored when evaluating an equipment/asset performance metrics.

    Regards. 
    Okey Okoli, CMRP 





  • 4.  RE: Trips and Failures

    Posted 06-29-2021 05:00 PM
    This is helpful thank you everyone!

    ------------------------------
    John Helwig
    Asset Management Consultant
    CDM Smith
    Kensington MD
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Trips and Failures

    Posted 06-23-2021 09:26 AM
    Trips would technically be functional failures even if there was no failed part found that was changed or that caused the failure.  It would also be unscheduled downtime.

    This is what makes setup and trip limits so important as technology adds complexity and protection to our systems.  I've had to adjust many different alarm and trip points on these automated systems in the past 5-10 years.

    MTBF is maybe a different situation.  Personally, I would not use for MTBF.  I would only use those events where an actual component physically failed and had to be changed.  The trip is almost like a pre-failure condition (high vibration, high temp, misalignment, unbalance, etc.).  A condition that if not corrected will likely lead to a failure or short life.  There are always different process conditions and operating conditions on our equipment.  The equipment just runs thru most of these but they are not failures.

    ------------------------------
    Randy Riddell, CMRP, PSAP, CLS
    Reliability Manager
    Essity
    Cherokee AL
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Trips and Failures

    Posted 06-24-2021 02:49 AM
    Hello Everyone, thank you for your responses. 
    I am also in agreement that if parts aren't changed, I would not use the trip in the MTBF calculation. But is there any document or standard that explains this?
    Thank you for your support





  • 7.  RE: Trips and Failures

    Posted 06-23-2021 09:51 AM
    I'd not consider those trips in MTBF, but I'll consider them in availability calculations for the system.

    ------------------------------
    Yaser Sahebi PhD
    Air Liquide Large Industries
    Houston TX
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Trips and Failures

    Posted 06-23-2021 01:07 PM

    Hi Tammy,

    In response to your questions:

    1. Are equipment trips considered as failures? – Yes, I believe they are.

    Let's say, for example, equipment trips on High inlet air temperature. Is this considered a failure? -  It is assumed that whatever system/ equipment you have is adequately designed, taking all external parameters in its environment into consideration.

     

    2. Will these trips be considered when calculating the MTBF of an equipment if no action was taken to bring the equipment back online? It was just restarted after inspection. – Even if the trip is appears spurious, once the unit could not deliver on demand, ideally it should still form part of your MTBF. Your decision may also depend on the time interval in question.

     

     

    Regards,

     

    Iroloye Bob-Manuel  | CMRP

     

     

     






  • 9.  RE: Trips and Failures

    Posted 06-24-2021 08:17 AM

    Tammy,

    I would not classify as a failure unless there was a true equipment failure causing the trip, but I would consider these as "micro" stops and treat in a different manner.  Although they would not impact MTBF they do directly impact capacity and OEE and as such should be tracked and acted upon if they are found to be substantial.  You might be surprised at the end of a week or month how much actual down time is caused by these trips.  Good luck.



    ------------------------------
    Paul Groniger
    Executive Director of Operations, Facilities & Maintenance
    Sodexo Inc
    Kalamazoo MI
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Trips and Failures

    Posted 06-24-2021 09:35 AM
    Hi, Tammy

    Thank you for bringing up an interesting and important topic for discussion.   As you can see from the responses, there are more than one right answers and you have to decide what makes the most sense in your own unique situation. 

    In my ooiniin, the common indicators that we use help us by giving us a common vocabulary for these types of discussions, but should not be considered the only valid ways of expressing performance metrics.  You might consider tracking the minor resets separately, inventing MTBT as "mean time between trips" and MTFOR as "mean time for operator restart" separate from the traditional MTBF and MTTR.

    I do think it's important to be self-consistent in your data reporting.   If you include the minor trips in your MTBF calculations you should also include the minor resets in your MTTR.

    i sincerely hope this helps.

    ------------------------------
    Daniel Corman
    Houston TX
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Trips and Failures

    Posted 06-24-2021 10:59 AM
    Tammy,

    I think that the several aspects to be considered have been raised by the other respondents.  I think that a key consideration related to tracking "equipment trips" in your MTBF calculations is the source of the trip.  If a pump or compressor has multiple trips on high current, do you know why that is happening?  Is a breaker failing?  Is the material the equipment is handling is not meeting specs?  Is it some internal equipment degradation?  If your MTBF is for a line or system, you would probably include it in the calculation.  If it is for that piece of equipment then I think you would want to be as specific as you can about defining failure.  If the equipment is shutdown by protection / control system actions, it is just performing the intended function.   At that point the design of the protection and controls and probably the feed of material into the system would need to be evaluated to really find the root cause. 

    I agree with others in this discussion that tracking / quantifying the trips is important.  If there is a brief trip of unknown cause once a year with little impact, you won't invest too much in the root cause.  If they are happening frequently and causing persistent small losses of resource time or production time, they would justify a serious root cause effort. 

    You do have to be able "see them" in some metric to be able to address them in the most cost effective way.

    Regards,


    ------------------------------
    Roger Shaw
    APM Consultant
    Salem CT
    Roger_Shaw@comcast.net
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Trips and Failures

    Posted 06-25-2021 05:20 AM
    Hi Tammy,
    As Roger has rightly pointed out, the frequency of occurence of the trips need to be considered. It is these small trips and resets that become chronic problems in any plant, and many a time they are seldom recorded by the plant personnel. Over a period of time, it sort of becomes an accepted standard and would lead to a degradation of OEE over a period of time. A proper RCA would uncover such failures and can improve the productivity of the plant. 
    It would be good if such trips and resets are classified as seperate damage codes and tracked in the CMMS system, so that it would be easier to track such instances of failures.
    Regards,
    Srihari

    ------------------------------
    Srihari R ramasubramanian.srihari@gmail.comManager
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Trips and Failures

    Posted 06-25-2021 06:34 AM
    Hello tammy,
    As I understand from your message that the machine has tripped at over temperature , if this is out of the design temperature then the machine is still reliable because it meets its intended function under its specified temperature range ,  but MTBF will be used to calculate its availability and also MTTR time to restore it to normal condition again .
    you have to consider TPM as to involve operation team tp prevent such these out of specs. trips.
     Thanks.

    Hossam.
    O&M advisory service manager .
    CMRP.

    ------------------------------
    Hossam Eldin A.Elhady CMRP
    Engineer
    FieldCore. a GE affilliate.
    Cairo
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Trips and Failures

    Posted 06-25-2021 11:23 AM
    The trip is a result of an abnormal condition, preventing it from becoming a destructive catastrophic event for the asset, or process.
    Of itself is not a failure. However it does affect availability. (shutdown/Inspect/restart).
    If the trips result in some type of corrective action required, such as a repair. If the trip is frequent, constant, repetitive (all subjective depending on operating context) then there is something else occurring that warrants further investigation. The trip is an indicator, rarely do things fix themselves.

    ------------------------------
    Gregg Pacelli
    Reliability Professional Engineer
    Gregg A. Pacelli Consulting
    Hilton NY
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Trips and Failures

    Posted 09-03-2021 11:00 PM
    Good discussions and agree that it should not be counted in MTBF. Question would it be counted for MTBM calculations. Combination of MTBF and MTBM are elements for Availability.

    ---------------------------------
    Tee Yeow Hum
    Reliability Manager
    Shell
    Singapore
    ---------------------------------





  • 16.  RE: Trips and Failures

    Posted 09-06-2021 06:23 AM
    No I don't think its a failure. Actually if machine does not trip on set trip parameters, then its a functional failure.

    Regards,

    ------------------------------
    Kalpesh Shah
    Senior RCM Consultant
    Maintenance, Management and Materials LLC
    Ahmedabad
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Trips and Failures

    Posted 09-06-2021 12:25 PM
    I agree with Kalpesh Shah.  The Equipment (e.g. a pump) that "is tripped" by a control system that is triggered by a design based cause (e.g. critically low suction pressure) has not failed and is not in need of maintenance.  Some other equipment, or part of a system has failed functionally, or there has been a human error that led to the condition necessitating the trip.  It is those other root causes that need to be determined, measured and addressed.
     
    Otherwise, reliability will not improve.
     
    Regards,
     
    Roger Shaw
    H - 860-383-2526
    M - 860-961-0763





  • 18.  RE: Trips and Failures

    Posted 09-08-2021 08:45 AM
    A few other thoughts on the subject which is an excellent subject for forum discussion.  I would assume when we say failure we are talking about a functional failure?  So by definition of a functional failure where the machine, system, or component no longer delivers its intended function.  If a trip causes the machine to shut down then by definition it is a functional failure.  At this point there is no mention of what caused the functional failure just that it ceased to produce its desired function - pump pumping, seal sealing, valve controlling, fluid flowing, etc.

    Part of the goal of reliability improvement (RCM or any process) is to manage failure modes and functional failures.  Trips while put in place by design to protect the asset, can also be a source of unreliability and may need to be addressed or modified in how they interrupt the system.  I have seen too many systems especially in today's world of technology where too much protection was designed in and the process is sacrificed.

    However the bigger issue is this.  Somewhere the trip reason must be determined.  Is it a false trip due to a bad sensor or is the trip legitimate.  If it is a bad sensor then there is a component failure that caused the trip.  If the trip is legitimate from a condition then what caused the condition?  There may be another failure in another system that caused the trip like a cooling water valve has failed or lube pump or an operator failure.  Either way there is failure of some sort at the end of the trip.  If trips are ignored then failure is being accepted.  Every trip may not justify an RCFA but trips are functional failures and they do interrupt the business.

    ------------------------------
    Randy Riddell, CMRP, PSAP, CLS
    Reliability Manager
    Essity
    Cherokee AL
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Trips and Failures

    Posted 09-08-2021 10:35 AM
    Hi Tammy,
    When you have a trip, it means that something is not right. Its clear that if the machine (its components/ parts/...) fails, you will have to consider the trip and include it in your MTBF calculations. But, the interesting part of your question is, what if the machine trips on an external cause?! I would say you should look at two things before deciding to include or exclude the failure in your calculations:
    1) Machine and its components are working within the designed criteria and an abnormal condition (outside design boundaries), activated the interlocks, affected the sensors or even the integrity of the equipment and mad it fail. Examples could be: flooding a pump which is not designed to work submerged, an ambient temperature of 130F for a machine which is designed to work in a max 90F ambient temp . In these cases the machine trip should not be considered a failure of the machine, but I'd agree to have it categorized as a design failure to some extent. I would not include this trip in MTBF for the machine, but for sure I'll start digging around and look for similar design caused trips and document them; at the end you may need to redesign some of the equipment (if you see a common track of failures as a result of design)
    2) Machine and its components and controls system tripped due to the implemented logic or as a result of not meeting the designed criteria for the operation. This is a little different with the previous category I mentioned above. In this case, lets pick the example you had, The inlet Air temperature is higher than it should be and activates the interlock and trips the machine. If the higher temp of the inlet air is a result of the machine's operation, then you need to figure out what caused that and perhaps the machine was the source of the trip and should be included in the MTBF calculations. But if the machine is just getting air from another source and the hot air is actually coming from another source (machine/HEX/...) , then your machine and its control system did what they supposed to do, and the trip was a failure of meeting the operation design criteria at somewhere else. I would not include this trip in the machine's calculations, but will and should do more investigation to find the root cause of the high air temp (which can be a design issue in another part of the system or a failure in operation of another component of the system-which in this case you need to consider it in the calculations for that system).
    There is a fine line between the examples I mentioned above, and not always that clear. But in a nutshell, if the failure is within the machine/process boundaries, you have to include it in the calculations either for the subjected machine or find the real source of the failure of that machine outside its boundaries.
    To sum this up, if you have a failure/trip, that means that something is not working as it should; as a reliability professional, you'd need to find that root cause and address it, no matter how you include it in the calculations.

    ------------------------------
    Yaser Sahebi PhD
    Air Liquide Large Industries
    Houston TX
    ------------------------------