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Wireless vibration monitoring with AI analysis

  • 1.  Wireless vibration monitoring with AI analysis

    Posted 11-09-2023 11:25 AM

    Is anyone using wireless vibration monitoring with AI analysis on batch processes? We are using wireless on our batch processes and using a person to do our analysis. For our processes the batches only last between 12 and 15 minutes and AI can't adapt to this. I'm just wondering if anyone has had any good experiences with this. My boss is wanting us to go in this direction and I'm not convinced it's the best move for us. 



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    Scott MacDowell
    Reliability Engineer
    Sika Corporation
    Canton MA
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  • 2.  RE: Wireless vibration monitoring with AI analysis

    Posted 11-09-2023 11:54 AM

    Hello Scott,

    Question for you with no help to you. I will start a new position Monday, Nov 13, switching from multiple management positions in power generation to chemical manufacturing, leading the Operational and Training Discipline across multiple locations. Without knowing if they have deployed any wireless monitoring, I will be pushing for RCM from my position. 

    What is the reason AI cannot adapt? is the time span too short, not producing enough data? 



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    Larry James
    Lockout Larry
    1. Personnel 2. Environment 3. Equipment 4. Revenue
    Reno NV
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    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Wireless vibration monitoring with AI analysis

    Posted 11-09-2023 01:12 PM

    Hi Larry,

    Congratulations on you're new position. At least for our application with our batch processes, typically the sensors take a reading every 5 to 10 minutes. Our process only runs for 12 to 15 minutes so there wouldn't be enough time to get data. The time rates can be increased but not enough to help and once you do that you cut your battery life. Also I like an actual person doing the analysis, in our case it will lessen the false alarms. 

    Also I don't know anyone who is using just the AI for there analysis. This is what I'm trying to find to see what their experiences have been.



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    Scott MacDowell
    Reliability Engineer
    Sika Corporation
    Canton MA
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    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Wireless vibration monitoring with AI analysis

    Posted 11-09-2023 01:20 PM

    Thanks Scott,

    Not enough data pints makes sense. I experienced similar problems when we first started using SCADA in power generation. I expect the plans I will be working with have similar challenges so i am looking forward to any answers in reply to your query.  



    ------------------------------
    Larry James
    Lockout Larry
    1. Personnel 2. Environment 3. Equipment 4. Revenue
    Reno NV
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Wireless vibration monitoring with AI analysis

    Posted 11-10-2023 06:11 AM

    Hello Scott, 

    I reckon, Hydro Reliability Services, based on Colorado offer such services. We are in a process of performing vibration monitoring on entire boiler feedwater pump motor trains using ODS (Operational Deflection Shape) and Experimental Modal Analysis (EMA). A fixed accelerometer is placed on one place and a triaxial accelerometer on various positions is moved on various places, during full and low load to determine the resonance excitation on structural components. The data is entirely calculated wirelessly.



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    Abbas Ashiq
    Mr.
    EnergyAustralia
    Traralgon VIC
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    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Wireless vibration monitoring with AI analysis

    Posted 02-06-2024 01:56 PM
    Edited by Marc Laplante 02-06-2024 02:02 PM

    Stepping back a bit - how is this application of AI supposed to help you?  What sort of predictions is it supposed to make?  What decisions is it supposed to help you make?

    Perhaps you could reconsider the application of the machine learning algorithm.  Rather than focusing on the vibration data you could consider training an algorithm that can notice a deviation of that vibration data along with other condition, process, or maintenance event data.  


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    Marc Laplante
    Asset Management Principle
    Committee Member ISO TC251
    Itus Digital
    Charleston, South Carolina

    mlaplante@itusdigital.com
    www.itusdigital.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Wireless vibration monitoring with AI analysis

    Posted 11-10-2023 09:49 AM
    I would contact Howard Penrose at MotorDoc about using ESA and his platform. It takes 47 seconds to collect the data and monitor the system through the MCC buckets so you also get the electrical heath of your assets. I believe this may be a great application for his system. 

    If you trail it I would be interested in hearing what you think. 

    Mark Kingkade 



    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Wireless vibration monitoring with AI analysis

    Posted 12-22-2023 07:11 AM

    Thanks, I am going to contact Howard.



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    Scott MacDowell
    Reliability Engineer
    Sika Corporation
    Canton MA
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    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Wireless vibration monitoring with AI analysis

    Posted 12-22-2023 09:17 AM

    Great, I think you will be glad you did and be impressed at what it can help you with. I would be interested in hearing what you think of the process.



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    Mark Kingkade
    Maintenance Engineer
    Des Moines IA
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    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Wireless vibration monitoring with AI analysis

    Posted 11-10-2023 07:21 PM

    Scott

    If you are already collecting vibration data in this fashion then you would normally utilize anomaly detection.  This would require some type of training period and a system capable of doing it.  We'll sometimes generate custom ML models for various applications or use AWS (although MS and IBM cloud services provide similar) for anomaly detection of overall data.  An expert system may actually suit your situation as anomaly detection (ML/AI) will not necessarily identify existing defects (actually, it won't and don't let them tell you otherwise).

    However, your opportunity may fit better with an expert ESA system.  Not load or operating dependent, will detect incoming power, machine, and load conditions - electrically and mechanically - and vibration analysts can pick up on additional prognostics (ie: verification).  As @Mark Kingkade mentioned, we utilize the Framatome EMPATH / ECMS ESA system.  Happy to discuss.



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    Howard W Penrose, Ph.D., CMRP
    Random Past SMRP Chair (2018), 2019+ Govt Relations Smart Grid, Infrastructure and Cybersecurity Working Group Chair,
    Chair Technical Standards wind, solar, energy storage, American Clean Power (formerly AWEA), and
    President
    MotorDoc LLC
    Lombard, Illinois
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Wireless vibration monitoring with AI analysis

    Posted 12-08-2023 09:15 AM

    Hello Scott,

    I just saw your post. My company uses continuous vibration monitoring but it is for continuously running equipment . The installation and monitoring is handled by a third part company which receives data directly from the vibration sensors. Any abnormalities they receive is flagged and sent to the site reliability team to check on the equipment. I believe the third party uses a simple form of AI to be able to detect variances in the vibration signatures but it is still reviewed by someone in their team. 

    I do agree with your last comment about not being convinced if it is the best move for you especially considering the short time run of your batches. It seems like there is ample time in between batches and the vibration monitoring will be sitting idle. It is good to do a cost benefit analysis on this as continuous monitoring may not be the most efficient way of monitoring and a lot of times going back to spot checks on a regular basis provide more value.  



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    Nimesh Kunwar
    Durham NC
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    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Wireless vibration monitoring with AI analysis

    Posted 12-13-2023 08:56 AM

    Scott,

      We're seeing success in real-time monitoring using hardwired sensors that are on our equipment and working in a batch type of process.  We're piloting the SensEye application right now on select equipment and are exploring adding inputs from wireless sensors to complement the OEM sensors on the equipment.  We've been able to set up On/Off states and track operation over certain time spans.  The application isn't just limited to vibration monitoring but has the ability to monitor a wide variety of other indicators - pressure, current, flow, etc.  We've seen solid returns on event detection on the equipment we're monitoring.  In addition, we're using internal personnel who are experts on the equipment to set thresholds and evaluate cases as they come up.  This approach has been working well with us in the pilot phase.

    Kind Regards,

    Tami



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    Tami Ryley CRL, PMP
    Equipment Reliability Program Manager
    Anacortes WA
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    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Wireless vibration monitoring with AI analysis

    Posted 12-14-2023 08:46 AM

    Scott, 

    We all know there are many solutions to use. At many times we have preferences do to business needs and asset types. 

    Make sure you find all the answers you IT team are needing. Especially the RF signals. Potential impact to other RF signals. 

    • RF Frequency, 
    • Protocol
    • Bandwidth
    • Signal Wattage
    • Intervals of communication
    • Duration of intervals
    • Etc.


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    Shaun Dick
    Integration Engineer
    Honda Development & Manufacturing of America, LLC
    Greensburg IN
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    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: Wireless vibration monitoring with AI analysis

    Posted 12-19-2023 08:10 AM

    Hey Scott,

    I don't have any equipment in my current role, but I have spoken to a number of people using AssetWatch and the Vero system for continuous vibration monitoring. This means that they would be able to capture data for batches pretty much no matter how short the run time is. Not affiliated with them, but they might be worth checking out or =asking them for a trial on a single piece of equipment to see if it would work for your application.



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    Jeremie Edwards MLA III , MLT II
    Technical Consultant
    Noria Corp
    Tulsa OK
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    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: Wireless vibration monitoring with AI analysis

    Posted 12-19-2023 08:27 AM

    Hi Jeremie,

    Thanks for the message, I've contacted AssetWatch and there not sure if they can monitor our batch process.



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    Scott MacDowell
    Reliability Engineer
    Sika Corporation
    Canton MA
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    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: Wireless vibration monitoring with AI analysis

    Posted 12-19-2023 08:35 AM

    Oh wow, well that's good to know, lol.



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    Jeremie Edwards MLA III , MLT II
    Technical Consultant
    Noria Corp
    Tulsa OK
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    Original Message


  • 17.  RE: Wireless vibration monitoring with AI analysis

    Posted 12-20-2023 11:05 AM

    Hey Scott, I actually design condition monitoring systems for a living. As luck should have it I designed a wireless system for a mixer oem last year that they have had some success with since. Their concern was the exact same as your own. The way we assured repeatable data was to trigger all of the vibe sensors off of an inexpensive RPM sensor that measure the speed of the shaft. This ensures that not only the data was captured only while the agitator was running but also at the same speed every time. Obviously looking at FFT data it is paramount that speed be a known variable. For some of their applications we had to use a wireless current sensor and trigger data collection only when the motor was under a full load. Both approaches work well and are economical and painless to adopt since all sensors are wireless. Let me know if you want some more detail. 



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    Andrew Pearl
    Reliability Engineer
    EMCO Industrial
    Matthews NC
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    Original Message


  • 18.  RE: Wireless vibration monitoring with AI analysis

    Posted 12-20-2023 11:45 AM

    Andrew,  

      We did something similar for our equipment that works in a batch type process - balanced vibration data with speed sensing data.  It has worked well for us during the pilot we've been conducting.



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    Tami Ryley CRL, PMP
    Equipment Reliability Program Manager
    Anacortes WA
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


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